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Information The future of TeaSpeak

Coolguy3289

Member
Premium User
Just read all of these comments, glad to see the community band together for this.
As for the situation, I'm sad to see that this is becoming an issue, but as a graduating uni student, I can also relate.

I'm working to get my company partnered with TeaSpeak, and once we are, my plan is to dedicate a percentage of our earnings from TeaSpeak sales to go towards @WolverinDEV as an additional donation in addition to our Premium license. It may not be much to start, but I want to help this project as much as I can and keep it going!
 

tgodias

New member
good night.
@WolverinDEV I have no problem paying a premium license monthly and being able to enjoy an excellent job that you offer.

I sincerely am delighted to know that even before you graduated from college you have dedicated yourself to the project and done what you did.



Congratulations and count on me for whatever it takes to maintain the project.

my license will always be renewed without any doubts.
 

Falconida

New member
What about opting for an unconventional business model?

Like the approach used by NextCloud or the one used by WordPress, or even something totally different...



I mean... ...there are many paths to "make a living" out of the software, even if it's OpenSource & Free.

Think about some PRO addon or integration that could be useful to different niches of customers.



Examples :

- a % fee on reseller SALES like @pichotm mentioned...

- Installing custom solution for Enterprise Customers;

- PREMIUM but SPECIFIC addons (Ex. : adding the possibility to link some channel to an FTP folderl);

- a Trello-Integration Plugin (for developers);

- some premium "CLASSROOMISH" feature.

- a Plugin Marketplace (this is probably the most interesting along with reseller's "fee");

- formation on what's above;

- a FEATURED-HOSTING to allow paid promotion from the new hosting that wishes to be homepage-featured.

- Physical purchases & merchandise

- Videogame non-intrusive advertising (Like discord does)





This could potentially allow students, dev-teams, and gamers to use the "Tea*Speak-like".

Being well known by many people who use the "ts-like" part... ...could be potentially helpful to promote "SIDEPRODUCT" that aims to a different customer target (like enterprise users).



FREE VS Freemium :

Do your analysis and research!!! MAYBE you could even discover how much a FREE thing can sometimes be more "profitable" than something too "limited".


P.S. : Enlarging a bit the difference from its main "competitor"... ...TeaSpeak could even become a software with a STONG OWN IDENTITY.
I know many people is here for "3.1" but... ...if the "base software" becomes better than competitors... ...3.1 becomes USELESS!!!
(even avoiding any possible legal issue)
 

Sparky

Well-known member
maybe will be good idea to start project for teaserver windows?
Sry Bro but y're totaly wrong.
@WolverinDEV don't have to build any TeaServer on Windows it's not needed.
It's not to Wolverin to update he's code to make it compatible with Windows but it's Microsoft to make them OS compatible to Wolverin project 😆 😆 😆 . AND it's what they already have down ;) it's called WSL.
Google it and you will learn some new sandbox to play. 😁


Btw the main build of TeaServer is to be runned on Linux servers => because it's spending lesser resources to run
Like windows has been created to be windowed => For clients who have nothing to care about terminals.
Microsoft decided to create Windows Servers To try to scrape market shares. but they will never have the majority of running server around the world.

Linux main use will always been for backend developers | servers | poor people
Legacy Windows will always been for people who love use them mouse and windows, ... => majority of peoples who don't know how servers are working

Macs will always been for Designers & "riches"
 

UncleSam

New member
For me it is totally valid for @WolverinDEV to make some money with TeaSpeak. He created it and it is a good software. However I also think it shouldn't be the focus as it should stay free too.

And just to remeber: free software can also die because it is free. In most cases the peoples who maintain the software to provide it free to all have costs too to do that. They need to pay servers for the webpage, buy tools to develop with or libraries they want or need to use, certificates for the software, ..., and their free time! So all in all it is not really free as someone pays for it to make it to make it free to us.

All in all I think the best solution is to make it some kind of commercial. For me that is the only way because making it FOSS sounds good in the first moment but would maybe result in fewer updates or even worse. And making money from it could also result in benefits for all because of more frequend updates, bigger community (sales, marketing) and more features (as people would work full time on it).

First of all I am not a sales man or somthing like that. So please take my idea below just something like a proposal:

Free community edition:
  • Only for personal non commercial usage
  • Maximum of 2 virtual servers with 64 slots in total
  • Community support (forum)
  • Addons like musicbot can be bought yearly

Paid community edition:
For personal non commercial usage like gamers or gaming communities I think it is affordable to pay some little fees. As this still is not for commercial usage, it souldn't be too much.
  • Only for personal non commercial usage
  • More virtual servers or slots needs to be bought yearly
    (not per slot but like packages - could be 64 more slots for x$ per year)
  • Maximum of 2 virtual server
    (everything above 2 virtual servers sounds like hosting to me which is no longer personal usage)
  • Community support (forum)
  • Addons like musicbot can be bought yearly

Commercial edition:
  • Unlimited virtual servers
  • Paid by monthly slot usage.
  • All features/addons (or paid on usage too)
  • Ticketsystem with enhanced support

Summary
My idea behind this ist to allow small teams to still use it for free. But if the teams grow in numbers it should be possible to pay some small fees.
But if somone wants to host TeaSpeak servers to earn money, they should pay from the first slot in my eyes. I suggested here to pay per slot as this is a fair method for both sides.

Some benefits for making it commercial (for all of us):
  • More often updates.
  • More features as people work fulltime on it.
  • Bigger community as marketing and sales would make TeaSpeak more known

Risks:
I think most of the TeaSpeak hosters are only hosting it as it is completely free at the moment. So if it is no longer free it could be, that the hosters no longer want to manage it as second/third VoIP product. This could also happen if it is too expensive.

Would be great to hear your ideas about that!
 

WolverinDEV

TeaSpeak Team
Staff member
Administrator
@UncleSam I really like the idea you proposed, except the slot thing.
Ofc it's the first "limitation" which comes in mind but I think it's preventing servers from growing.
Nobody wants to be afk on them since they're basically blocking slots for other users.

I'm actually playing with the thoughts to limit the channels and the clients per channel (as well the video transmissions per channel / server).
I think this actually has the same effect, distinguish non commercial users from commercial once, except don't putting a limit on the overall users.
In that way it's not a shame anymore to afk in one channel and using a slot.

PS: Especially with the new video update (announcement will come soon) I'm looking forward to getting TeaSpeak kinda Commercialised ;)
 

+DS_DV+

New member
[...] I'm looking forward to getting TeaSpeak kinda Commercialised ;)
TeaSpeak Server
Because a license fee is not my cup of tea!
sad to read.
i think the FOSS way with a good dontation system where you can get supporters is the far beter way.
especially because everybody can donate what they are willing to.
which will result in more stable growth of the community and allows welathy ppl who like to endorse the project to give more.
 

pvlopez

New member
I agree with +DS_DV+ commercial TeaSpeak goes agains its very own core message. A license fee is not my cup of tee. Otherwise it would just be better to use the new Tea*Speak 5 protocol and keep paying for it.
Sad words to hear, although I know its difficult to live from something totally free, but there are ways you can earn money without punishing the end user.
 

RoTrKO

Member
Premium User
I have read most of the posts here and I agree and disagree with every post partially. I'm sure that Wolverin will take the best decision and the outcome will be for the good of the community but also for him.

In my opinion and If I may suggest, you could work with a good donation system but to bring more futuristic features when Premium is active, and when I say futuristic features I mean for the use of the application, currently honestly the only reason I have bought premium is Change of Version title and Music bot. Adding more comprehensive features, different types of support layers (like Tier 1, Tier 2, VIP Support) might also have considerable differences.

UncleSam mentioned some good options to differentiate Community vs Commercial edition but as you mentioned Wolverine this kinda kills the idea of free. Some limitations can be in place but this limitation should not limit the growth of the server(s).

As always, I'm a supporter of TeaSpeak and I will always. :)
 

Hoerli

New member
Hier mal meine Meinung.
Es ist nur meine Meinung, ihr könnt gerne darüber Diskutieren :)

- Mach alles OpenSource, dann kann jeder helfen. Hol dir aber ein Team aus 2-3 Leuten, die den Code anschließend prüft, um kein Chaos zu bekommen
- Keine Spyware in den Client und Server einbauen. Also nein zu ANALytics, AdSense & Co. Einfach nur nein! (Mein AdBlock, ScriptBlock + Pi-Hole ist eh immer aktiv)
- Premium ja, aber auf keinen Fall zu einem Zwang machen, um das Projekt weiterhin zu supporten
- Privaten Nutzern keine bescheidenen Limits wie bei dem "anderen Produkt" einführen, ansonsten ist das Produkt nicht besser als das der anderen. 1024 Slots sind super und die Funktionen die "die anderen" nicht haben sind auch super!
- Lass die Firmen zahlen, die Server vermieten. Am besten X% von den vermieteten Slots. (Vielleicht ab 10 vermieteten Servern ist man ein "hoster"?)
- Gestatte Firmen eventuelle "Anpassungen", aber halt dies in Grenzen. Frisst nur unnötig viel Zeit.
- Keine komplett bescheidenen Limits für Serverlizenzen (Private Clans müssen auch irgendwie überleben und haben eventuell eine öffentliche Spendenkasse. "Die anderen" sagen für eine NPL direkt nein.)
- Lagere Plugins in die Community aus, um mehr Zeit für die Haupthemen zu haben
- Lege Wert auf einen gut und stabiel laufenden Client, statt auf ein Client mit 1000 Funktionen

Ich brauche am Ende einen guten Ersatz zu TeamS..., welcher mir nicht mit überteuerten Lizenzkosten für einen kleinen privaten Server das Geld aus der Tasche zieht.
Er muss stabiel laufen, darf gern FOSS sein, sollte so schlank und Ressourcensparend wie möglich sein und sollte genau das minimum an Funktionen aufweisen, die man braucht.
Sind wir ehrlich, du hast einen Clon erstellt, also mach den Clon einfach besser als das original! :)
Dann ist auch mal etwas in der Kaffeekasse drin!
Und nein, ich brauch kein Disco** oder ein Clon davon.

___________________________________________


Here is my opinion.
It's just my opinion, feel free to discuss :)

- Make everything open source, then everyone can help. But get a team of 2-3 people to check the code afterwards to avoid chaos.
- Don't put spyware in the client and server. So no to ANALytics, AdSense & Co. Just no! (My AdBlock, ScriptBlock + Pi-Hole is always active anyway)
- Premium yes, but in no case make it a compulsion to keep supporting the project
- Don't introduce modest limits to private users like the "other product", otherwise the product is no better than the others. 1024 slots are great and the features that "the others" don't have are great too!
- Make the companies that rent servers pay. Best is X% of the rented slots. (Maybe from 10 rented servers you are a "hoster"?)
- Allow companies possible "adjustments", but keep this within limits. Eats only unnecessarily much time.
- No completely modest limits for server licenses (private clans have to survive somehow and may have a public donation fund. "The others" say directly no for a NPL).
- Outsource plugins to the community to have more time for the main topics
- Put emphasis on a good and stable running client, instead of a client with 1000 functions.

In the end I need a good replacement for TeamS..., which does not pull the money out of my pocket with overpriced license costs for a small private server.
It has to run stable, may be FOSS, should be as lean and resource saving as possible and should have exactly the minimum of features you need.
Let's be honest, you made a clone, so just make the clone better than the original! :)
Then there is also something in the coffee box!
And no, I don't need Disco** or a clone of it.
 

connorskija

New member
For me it is totally valid for @WolverinDEV to make some money with TeaSpeak. He created it and it is a good software. However I also think it shouldn't be the focus as it should stay free too.

And just to remeber: free software can also die because it is free. In most cases the peoples who maintain the software to provide it free to all have costs too to do that. They need to pay servers for the webpage, buy tools to develop with or libraries they want or need to use, certificates for the software, ..., and their free time! So all in all it is not really free as someone pays for it to make it to make it free to us.

All in all I think the best solution is to make it some kind of commercial. For me that is the only way because making it FOSS sounds good in the first moment but would maybe result in fewer updates or even worse. And making money from it could also result in benefits for all because of more frequend updates, bigger community (sales, marketing) and more features (as people would work full time on it).

First of all I am not a sales man or somthing like that. So please take my idea below just something like a proposal:

Free community edition:
  • Only for personal non commercial usage
  • Maximum of 2 virtual servers with 64 slots in total
  • Community support (forum)
  • Addons like musicbot can be bought yearly

Paid community edition:
For personal non commercial usage like gamers or gaming communities I think it is affordable to pay some little fees. As this still is not for commercial usage, it souldn't be too much.
  • Only for personal non commercial usage
  • More virtual servers or slots needs to be bought yearly
    (not per slot but like packages - could be 64 more slots for x$ per year)
  • Maximum of 2 virtual server
    (everything above 2 virtual servers sounds like hosting to me which is no longer personal usage)
  • Community support (forum)
  • Addons like musicbot can be bought yearly

Commercial edition:
  • Unlimited virtual servers
  • Paid by monthly slot usage.
  • All features/addons (or paid on usage too)
  • Ticketsystem with enhanced support

Summary
My idea behind this ist to allow small teams to still use it for free. But if the teams grow in numbers it should be possible to pay some small fees.
But if somone wants to host TeaSpeak servers to earn money, they should pay from the first slot in my eyes. I suggested here to pay per slot as this is a fair method for both sides.

Some benefits for making it commercial (for all of us):
  • More often updates.
  • More features as people work fulltime on it.
  • Bigger community as marketing and sales would make TeaSpeak more known

Risks:
I think most of the TeaSpeak hosters are only hosting it as it is completely free at the moment. So if it is no longer free it could be, that the hosters no longer want to manage it as second/third VoIP product. This could also happen if it is too expensive.

Would be great to hear your ideas about that!
maybe it will be good to limit only virtual servers and hosting pay per virtual server (maybe 20 cent per virtual server) but that kill point of teaspeak being free
 

akkari

New member
I thought about posting this with our company forum account, but I refused to, as this is my personal opinion, even though it mostly reflects the thoughts of our company. Please note that this is not meant to attack anyone and is intended as constructive feedback.

Here is my opinion.
It's just my opinion, feel free to discuss :)

- Make everything open source, then everyone can help. But get a team of 2-3 people to check the code afterwards to avoid chaos.
- Don't put spyware in the client and server. So no to ANALytics, AdSense & Co. Just no! (My AdBlock, ScriptBlock + Pi-Hole is always active anyway)
- Premium yes, but in no case make it a compulsion to keep supporting the project
- Don't introduce modest limits to private users like the "other product", otherwise the product is no better than the others. 1024 slots are great and the features that "the others" don't have are great too!
- Make the companies that rent servers pay. Best is X% of the rented slots. (Maybe from 10 rented servers you are a "hoster"?)
- Allow companies possible "adjustments", but keep this within limits. Eats only unnecessarily much time.
- No completely modest limits for server licenses (private clans have to survive somehow and may have a public donation fund. "The others" say directly no for a NPL).
- Outsource plugins to the community to have more time for the main topics
- Put emphasis on a good and stable running client, instead of a client with 1000 functions.

In the end I need a good replacement for TeamS..., which does not pull the money out of my pocket with overpriced license costs for a small private server.
It has to run stable, may be FOSS, should be as lean and resource saving as possible and should have exactly the minimum of features you need.
Let's be honest, you made a clone, so just make the clone better than the original! :)
Then there is also something in the coffee box!
And no, I don't need Disco** or a clone of it.
I totally agree.
Adding limitations to available servers, slots, channels or user counts (in channels whatever) does not help improving the current situation.
TeaSpeak right now is a pretty useful software, but it's not something I or many other colleagues would really rely on.

But why is that?
  • Closed Source: The TeaSpeak Server is closed source and cannot be verified for bugs, nor extended by needed features.
    Tea*Speak and other companies may go through with this, but this is due one main reason: Trust.
    Tea*Speak is known as a serious company, known for security audits and military usage. The TeaSpeak code is managed by one person, who no one knows about. It's a noble idea, yeah, but I cannot trust that the code is good or that the single person that controls it has malicious intentions. Maintaining the source code in a public repository enables everybody to verify, correct and co-maintain the code, resulting in more trust and more development in the main project, while the maintainer (Wolverin) still has the control and saying what happens to his main branch.
  • (Lack of) Widespread awareness: If you go and ask some random Tea*Speak or Discord users, if they've heard of or even used TeaSpeak before: Chances are, they wouldn't know what you're talking about.
    TeaSpeak simply isn't as wide spread as any of the other solutions on the market. The two main factors that currently bring growth to this project (at least from my perspective) are that the server software is completely free to use and that it is nearly 100% compatible with the Tea*Speak Client communication protocol. Most users on TeaSpeak servers use the Tea*Speak client... and there is nothing wrong with that.
    Why should they bother to switch? To most users, there wouldn't be a reason to switch to a new software, most don't even know that they are connected to a TeaSpeak server instance.
    Bringing TeaSpeak to a paid model now, wouldn't just scare away many of the current users that are using it because it is free, it would also hinder any further growth, as it would develop into a niche product, that also has license limitations. Didn't the other users just run away from that?
  • Unknown future: TeaSpeak currently suffers of a problem, many smaller closed source projects suffer from. It's completely dependent on the will of one single person. What happens if this person should unexpectedly pass away? What happens if he decides that he doesn't have time for it anymore? What happens, if he goes into a whole other direction with the project, that doesn't match your use case anymore? What if he won't ever fix that one bug, because it's not worth it to him? Many of these problems can at least be partially solved using FOSS approach. They also allow for more stability in the development and roadmap process, as other people can also better bring in their time and motives and can also fork it to go into their desired directions. It's a win for everybody. Also a clear roadmap, transparently decided on by and with the community would help in this regard.
But what about the money?
The creator of TeaSpeak @WolverinDEV has done and I'm sure will continue to do a great job with this project. He deserves to be compensated monetarily for his hard work. But whether he will fall into the same traps as Tea*Speak with monetization or closed source development is his choice.
FOSS doesn't mean that you aren't able to make money with it. That's a closed minded view of things. FOSS and premium features can go hand in hand.
Some examples:
  • Premium and Free releases
    Premium users can buy premium supported builds, that are known to be stable and get support for that.
    Free users can always get the latest nightly code and builds.
  • Shifted Free releases
    Premium users always get the latest code and builds.
    Free users are always one or two versions behind.
  • Premium modules
    The TeaSpeak server software itself is always Free as in Freedom.
    Users can buy additional modules like video chat, higher quality codecs and other premium features. Allowing users to create their own custom modules that integrate alongside yours also helps widening the use cases for the server software.
  • Premium support
    Users can buy into a premium support contract, allowing them to see advanced documentation, access premium user forums or get better support.
  • Feature Bounties
    Users can vote for requested features by setting a money bounty on that request.
So what's next?
TeaSpeak is a great software and as someone who's been using it for almost more then two years, I'd love to see the project grow even further and to become a new standard. But in order to become a new standard, you have to eliminate the fears many professional users have and provide a stable and future proof environment that allows for all of that. Other very very successful open source projects have successfully made a lot of money flow and momentum happen, because they are free: WordPress, Matomo, Java, Linux, Chromium, and contless more. When there is a good idea and a will, there can always be money, even if it's free.

Maybe my thoughts have helped you getting another view on the topic of open-sourcing the code, as I've felt that it's falsely perceived as losing control here in this forum.


Edit:
I've also read a lot of times, that the source code would be DMCA'd by the other company, if you were to upload your own implementation.
  1. TeaSpeak should easily be able to go against that, since the code is completely self-written and was already checked (@WolverinDEV said that a few times in some posts).
  2. You can easily set up a public GitBucket / Gitea / <insert-free-git-portal> on the same server as the teaspeak website and forum and provide the git functionality from here, when fearing that the repo would be banned on GitHub or other public services.
 
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WolverinDEV

TeaSpeak Team
Staff member
Administrator
@akkari thanks for your replay.
There are definitively some good thoughts and some, where I disagree on.

The TeaSpeak Server is closed source and cannot be verified for bugs, nor extended by needed features.
Tea*Speak and other companies may go through with this, but this is due one main reason: Trust.
Tea*Speak is known as a serious company, known for security audits and military usage. The TeaSpeak code is managed by one person, who no one knows about. It's a noble idea, yeah, but I cannot trust that the code is good or that the single person that controls it has malicious intentions.
I aggrege on the first two sentences.
Closed source software is (and most likely) will stay based on some kind of trust factor.
But that's not a big deal since if there is somebody (or a company) is liable for the software they provide you should have that trust, especially when used by many else. At least some of them would notice if there is any malicious activity and in such cases, legal actions could be taken.

To the whole rest of the text:
I totally disagree with that.
Firstly (especially in German law) having a private person being liable is way more worth than having a GmbH (Geselschaft mit beschränkter Haftung) (I can go more in-depth if you wan't).
Secondly, your named company is not known for "known for security audits and military usage". They, as far as I know, never claimed so nor is any of that proven.

(Lack of) Widespread awareness:
This is one of the key things when it comes to software.
The goal of every (there are exceptions) software is to become wildly known and used, which ofc is also the goal of mine.

I agree on the point that one of the key features of TeaSpeak is that it's free. I'm also intending to keep it such way (at least for people who just want to hang out with their friends in a small community).

But, being free and a cheap replacement for some other protocol compatible software is not a goal nor a good thing to have.
TeaSpeak is itself a Client <=> Server software which offers way more features than your named third party software.
Not only is using such client stupid, it's also causing problems. As TeaSpeak grows further in terms of users and features, such protocol similarities will be dropped.

Unknown future
This is a thing with almost all small/medium-sized software provider.
Having a truck number of one is one of the biggest drawbacks of TeaSpeak and I agree that some kind of open-source would improve that.
What you've correctly pointed out is, that TeaSpeak currently does not have a straight, public roadmap (I have some plans for myself).
This is mainly because I don't want to force myself into fulfilling some deadlines, at least right now it's still a free-time project of mine.
But such things will change :) (Planned with the 1.5.0 versions, stay tuned)

Many of these problems can at least be partially solved using FOSS approach. They also allow for more stability in the development and roadmap process, as other people can also better bring in their time and motives and can also fork it to go into their desired directions. It's a win for everybody.
"It's a win for everybody.", yes but only if people participate, which they (currently) don't seem to do (you can take the open-source WebClient/client UI as a reference https://github.com/TeaSpeak/TeaWeb).
The only changes made by others are translation and readme.md changes (both could have been done without having the source code published).
Note: This doesn't mean that I did not appreciate the work they've done. I do (especially @Vafin!)

But in order to become a new standard, you have to eliminate the fears many professional users have and provide a stable and future proof environment that allows for all of that.
This is the goal of the 1.5.0 version (bringing TeaSpeak up to a stable and stand-alone usable basis).
I've changed some things within the internal build circle which will allow me to give long term support for stable versions 'till the next stable version or EOL. The 1.5 versions will also be the base of some other, more in-depth changes within the server internals which need to be made (and need some testing).

Other very very successful open source projects have successfully made a lot of money flow and momentum happen, because they are free
Well yes and no. They're free but all of them are not standalone free.
Chromium itself is a big financial loss for google. Java isn't free any more (it kinda is but it's complicated) and Linux is backed up by GNU.
Sadly you can't compare such projects with our situation since all of them have a big company behind them which have the financial ability to back up such projects.

I've also read a lot of times, that the source code would be DMCA'd by the other company
They have no right to do so.
If they would try legal actions will happen.
But thanks for your offer.

Note:
In general I'm pretty happen about all the different revenue streams you suggest, some of them I've not yet thought of.
I'm not yet completely decided (I'll see how 1.5 goes) but I'm pretty convinced, keeping the TeaSpeak server closed source.
I'm also pretty sure that with the official announcement of the video and screen sharing feature the popularity for using the TeaClient would increase a lot.
 

Vafin

TeaFanatic
"It's a win for everybody.", yes but only if people participate, which they (currently) don't seem to do (you can take the open-source WebClient/client UI as a reference https://github.com/TeaSpeak/TeaWeb).
The only changes made by others are translation and readme.md changes (both could have been done without having the source code published).
Note: This doesn't mean that I did not appreciate the work they've done. I do (especially @Vafin!)
I and other forum members would be able to provide a lot of support if you started developing a client based on Flutter, which I am somewhat familiar with. I have previously created a discussion about this https://forum.teaspeak.de/index.php?threads/cross-platform-teaspeak-client-on-flutter.2995/
 

razaq

Well-known member
like many already said before me: in my opinion going open source would be the best way for this project. development is faster, bugs are detected earlier and new features are added quicker.
Offering an open source, free alternative to Tea*speak and discord where people know what happens with their data (unlike discord) would really give this project its own purpose. Right now its really not that distinguished from the other ones and thats whats holding back the popularity imo. Its the same reason mumble became quite popular (whats holding mumble back is that it lacks a lot of features).

just my two cents
 
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serveralan

Member
Hello my friend, I am Turkish, I've been following you since the first day Believe me, you are very successful I wholeheartedly support you to do the best and the most beautiful I hope you will come to a more successful place good forums ...